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« Surgery | Main | Denver still can't prove BSL is working - and other Denver news »

March 03, 2009

Comments

YesBiscuit!

Oh. So what now? Ban Labs?

EmilyS

sigh..
such great information.
such valuable data.
And yet.. can we hope that the Denver City Council would actually CARE about facts?

I fear not, they are so deeply intrenched in their mindset.

Major major kudo's to the Coalition; it couldn't have been easier digging out this stuff. At least, it can serve as background for other locations considering BSL.

TEH

This is great....exactly what was needed to place the situation of dog bites in perspective. And reinforces that the vast majority of dogs do not bite and most are minor.
And for the few that were serious, if only the ones implicating "pitbulls" are reported and get all the media coverage....then you obviously has a very distorted view....and therein resides the problem......

TEH

EmilyS

sorry I meant to type "couldn't have been easy" to get the info, not easier!
Brent knows how hard it can be to get info from agencies that may not want to provide it...


Brent

LOL - yes Emily, it is becoming increasingly difficult to get information from a lot of these cities. It's amazing that when things aren't working, how little they want to share. And I also know how easy it is to forget to proof read my own posts :)

TEH, I agree that this is good information. In spite of this, and other similar studies that are providing good info, some people still want to believe that all the studies are lying and that those people have an agenda. I much prefer that you look at the data and form your opinion vs having an opinion and looking for information to support it.

Carianne

How do we get every news station to pick this up? This is the information we need to keep communities safer, not media propaganda against one breed...

EmilyS

ALERT ALERT ALERT!
HSUS is in the pocket of dogfighters!
Didn't you know that?
Denver Ass City Attorney Kory Nelson does:

"Ban backer
Kori Nelson, a Denver assistant city attorney who lead the city’s fight to re-enact its ban on pit bulls in 2004, called pit bulls a unique breed with inherently dangerous characteristics.
He said the ban is working as evidenced by the fact that there has not been a serious attack since the ban was enacted.
“I don’t know anyone who argues that pit bull bans or restrictions are designed to prevent all dog bites,” he said. “It’s designed to prevent maulings and death attacks by pit bulls.”
Comparing pit bulls to grenades, Nelson said the purpose of banning the breed is to prevent unprovoked attacks.
“Once a grenade goes off, the damage is already done,” he said.

Hidden agenda?
The assistant city attorney also suggested a “secret hidden agenda” behind anti-BSL groups like the Coalition for Living Safely with Dogs and the Humane Society of the United States. Nelson pointed out that such groups rely on donations for their efforts, especially when the economy is down. "It’s politically incorrect for them to admit the truth of this, which is that pit bulls are more dangerous,” said Nelson, who added that "donations could come from anywhere, even including leaders of dog-fighting rings"
http://www.thedenverdailynews.com/article.php?aID=3473

Pit bull NM

I look forward to reading the report...thanks for posting. I'm also interested to see what others will making of the study.

Donovan

Brent

Emily,

I know -- it's hard to read that without laughing. HSUS is a lot of things -- but in bed with dog fighters is certainly not one of them.

louise

here are a few questions I cant seem to get answers for from any of you fighting dog advocates...what is the reason for owning a fighting dog?? ie - on the face of this earth what purpose does a fighting dog serve? and why would one chose a fighting dog as a family pet? i am all ears...

Brent

Louise,

Have you actually ever met a dog that was one of the pit bull breeds? The reality is, they are just dogs. They go for walks, sleep on pillows, chew on bones and toys, just like other dogs.

Keep in mind that the VAST majority of the dogs that have been grouped into the 'pit bull' category haven't come from a line of dogs used in fighting for nearly 100 years. They're no more "natural born fighters" than most poodles are natural born bird hunters (they're originally bred purpose).

I really encourage you to go to your local shelter and meet a few of these dogs at your local shelter. Meet a few with one of the shelter workers there, and then let me know if you still think they're all evil creatures. An opinion is best made with first hand knowledge, and not from reading news clippings or internet sites.

louise

you still have not answered my question. my choose a dog in the fighting/agressive dog category for a family pet? and i do have first hand experience, almost had my face taken off by one that was a "family pet". so I again ask, why? here is another question - why are pits the dog of choice for dog fighting? why not shepherds or rotties or chows?

Mark

[quote]why choose a dog in the fighting/agressive dog category for a family pet?[/quote]

Why don`t you find an owner of a

Boston Terrier

[quote]A Look Back
Following the Civil War, the Boston Terrier breed was developed in the stables of Boston, Massachusetts, as a fighting dog. [/quote]

or a

Boxer

[quote]Boxers were originally used for dog fighting and to run down and hold large game such as wild boar and bison until the hunter could arrive.[/quote]

and ask them?
http://www.akc.org/breeds/breeds_a.cfm

or are you just trying to justify your prejudice towards certain people...I mean dogs?

No one has to explain to you why they choose a certain dog.
They just have to be responsible owners.
I usually just read this blog but I had to respond to that.

I own one of the dogs you think you hate.
Care to guess what color I am,what hobbies I have,my employment,my age,where I live,whether I`m married,have kids,wear baggie pants,have a criminal past or do you know all that based on what dog I choose to own?

I`d ask what you own but aside from the fact that it`s none of my business,I don`t care what you own as long as you don`t allow your dog to be a nuisance and you treat it humanely.

Are you sure you didn`t have your face almost taken off by a Lab?
They`re ALL known for that...since that episode in France.

I wonder why anyone would choose a dog in the face ripper offer category?
Hmmmm?
I must find a Lab owner and ask.
Well at least I`ll be in a respectable good Neighborhood.


I`ll go back to just being a Reader now that I haven`t answered Louise`s question,nor shall I.

Brent

Louise,

I've handled a lot of dogs doing rescue. As such, it shouldn't be a surpise that I've been bitten a time or two (never actually by a 'pit bull", but by other breeds). Now, I could translate those bites into saying gee, all of breed "x" is bad. But there is always a reason why the dog bit (and it was never because of the breed of the dog).

I've met literally thousands of 'pit bull' type dogs. All but a small handful have been awesome dogs.

At one point, I probably would have agreed with you. Why would someone want to have a pit bull, there are so many other breeds?

But I've just met so many -- and you know what -- they're just dogs. So why do people get Labs? Or Chihuahuas? Or St. Bernards? People have their own preferences -- and that's the great thing about dogs, there is a size and personality for everyone.

I wanted to help a dog that needed help finding a home. I adopted a dog that was going to be tough to place in a home. I then had one that came to me weighing about half her body weight, and I fell in love. We found another ont he side of the road that had been hit by a car. She was bloody and she had a broken leg.

So why do I have "pit bulls"? Because they deserve good homes too. Becuase like all other breeds of dogs, they're just dogs.

louise

I am well aware of the fact that labs and goldens have been grossly overbred, this is not news to me, its been going on for years. I am not a fan of those breeds. I am also well aware of the background of most breeds. I am asking questions about a breed that is currently used as a fighting dog. I did not state my opinion, other than saying one I knew that was raised by a very responsible knowledgable dog owner, that i knew since it was a tiny pup, attacked me with no warning and totally unprovoked. I stated a true fact, an undisputable event that happened to me. I thought I would ask my questions here as you all seem to be knowledgable about the breed. So, that said, why are Pit Bulls the #1 choice of dog fighters? why not labs then? or other breeds with agression in their history be it boxer or boston terrier, or Rottie, or shepherd, or Chow, etc.... Would I be better of asking a dog fighter since none of you seem to know?

Brent

I want to make one point clear, the vast majority of 'pit bulls' are not used in dog fighting. Most are merely pets. Dog fighting has been illegal in this country for 150 years or so, and been actively enforced for about 70 years. Most 'pit bulls' are not used for fighting -- and haven't been in some time.

Yeah, you'd probably have to ask an actual dog fighter why they choose this breed. They have a lot of traits though that I see why people would like them. They're strong and muscley -- so they look tough -- and are quick. They're very easily trained and unlike some of the other breeds you mentioned, they're really quite small (most are 35-60 lbs) -- which would make them a lot more easily managed than some of the larger breeds. Just guesses though...

Mark

[quote]So, that said, why are Pit Bulls the #1 choice of dog fighters?[/quote]

I`m not sure how you know they are but I`ll take your word for it.
My commonsense guess as to why they use them is:

1)You send your best Athletes to the Olympics not the 2nd best or third best.

2)You send Athletes willing to get up at 5am every morning for years(forgoing all other activities) to train.

3)You send the best but along with that you also send the ones who listen to the Coach,are easy to train,are loyal,are eager to please,can focus,(want to sit in your lap and give kisses when they`re not working/training-this one applies to the dogs not Olympic Athletes)

I guess some of them are exploited by criminals for illegal activities for the same reasons that we non criminals want them in our homes and our lives and why they are used by Police Officers,by people who do Therapy with dogs,Search and Rescue people and people involved in Dog Sports.

I think some better questions are:

Why are we allowing some of these dogs to be exploited by criminals?

Why are we blaming these dogs for having such great qualities?

I ask you Louise
Why would they NOT exploit these particular dogs?
How is that remotely the fault of the dogs?
Clean up the criminal activities because these criminals will exploit the 2nd best and the 3rd best and so on down the line if need be.
The problem is the criminal activity not the great qualities of these dogs.

louise

that still doesnt answer my question so let me rephrase... what are the specific FIGHTING traits that the dog fighters find desirable, ie - that make them winners when they go up against other dogs. to compare to the olympics, a swimmer may not be a good olympic skier. Athletes are usually event specific. Pits are not used for bird hunting for instance.

They fight them pit to pit. why don't they use Rotties or Chows, or Dobies? Plenty of dogs are very trainable and have those characteristics you mentioned. My suspicion is that the Pit has superior or more desirable fighting traits, during the actual head to head attack. so, what are these actual fighting abilities that distinguishes the Pits from other dogs that makes them desirable? the guy on the street sure must know which is why there are so many using them for fighting. I would hope that you would know this, I think its important to know these things in order to be a responsible owner as you say you are.

Brent

Louise,

You sort of missed the point(again). There are no specific fighting traits, but a combination of other traits, already mentioned, that would make them suitable.
Being "event-specific" has as much to do with shape as it does with personality.

Some dogs are used for bird hunting -- this usually comes with having a good sense of smell (which I have not noticed 'pit bulls' as really having). It also requires running long distances, which bullies are not well adapted to because of their shorter snouts (ie, part of why Greyhounds make great racers/rabbit hunters). Dachsunds, rat terriers and others are great at getting vermin that live in the ground -- which would be an awful task for a large dog like a St. Bernard. Meanwhile, St. Bernards and other long-haired dogs do better in mountain settings because they have warm coats -- but get hot easily in warm climates.

Form (at least orginally)drives function -- and then breeders have worked to refine form to follow that function.

So, I don't think it takes a whole lot of guesswork to figure why a short, muscular dog, with short fur, that is both highly trainable and loyal would make a good combination for someone who wanted to fight them. And again, I'll point out the other three breeds you noted are all double-triple the size of the average 'pit bull' -- which would be problematic when trying to break up a fight.

All that said, I'm much more interested in the qualities that make them great pets -- which is why I am a responsibly owner.

Mark

I think I have read posts by you all over the Internet.


louise

tell ya what, I will ask the street for their take on this, their opinion why they are superior fighters and get back to you.

MichelleD

I don't know how many ways to say it before it clicks with you. Fact is...you're trying to prove a point not learn anything.

Why do the Chinese use Sharpei's to fight but here they're considered docile family pets. Go ask the boyz in the Chinese hood that while you're at it Louise. Ask the Afgahn people why they fight the big furry dogs they do? Ask them why they make their women wear burkas while you're at it.

Pit are damn straight used for bird hunting - just because you didn't hear about it on dogsbite.org doesn't mean it doesn't happen. All you are looking for is FIGHTING (your emphasis) traits - so maybe we don't know what those are BECAUSE THEY DON'T EXIST!

And pit bulls are used for fighting NOW because that's what everyone keeps promoting them as - thank you H$U$ and PETA!

Really Louise - what dog would you choose to fight? You don't know the traits - you just know they're used for fighting. Maybe that's exactly what every dumbass that uses them for fighting knows as well.

Manuela M

I just wanted to comment on "why own a fighting dog" and "why pit bulls for fighting, and not Sheps, Rotts or.. what-have-you".
# 1: I chose American Pit Bull Terriers because they are the only breed bred specifically for bite inhibition towards humans due to its function as fighting dog (pit dogs were fighting with humans in very close proximity, unlike many other fighting breeds). They are the most versatile dog to do a variety to dog sports with (we compete in agility, obedience, weight-pull, conformation and Rally obedience) and succeed in all of them.

#2 The breeds you mentioned WERE, in fact, fought as well in the past.. anything that could hold its own was fought at one point. It's just, that none of the others would stop at biting the handler in that situation, nor were they as successful or could be evenly matched with other dogs due to their size (ie: Rotts).

I love it, when people have a problem with a breed because one individual dog of that breed once bit them. To give that notion credit, though: I have been bitten twice by two different Australian Heelers, my neighbor's Heeler tries to bite any chance he gets and any Heeler that I had ever had to deal with (with one or two exceptions) tries to nail me. Once you have that amount of negative experiences with a breed, you are invited to hate it... with one attempted bite... your experience really doesn't rate as more than a hateful, prejudice attitude, fed by hear-say.

Selma

I am not interested in hanging around with fighting dogs, which is why I like American Pit Bull terriers so much. They are smart, energetic and the ones I know love to clown around to get laughs.

'Louise' is a typical troll with nothing much to do.

Oh, the reason 'pit bulls' (ha ha) are popular as 'fighting' dogs with the know-nothing street punks is because the media, the HSUS, Peta and others have heavily advertised them that way for nearly 20 years. All the lies about magical qualities, being 'bred' (please) for fighting, etc have had the desired effect - sales of backyard-bred knockoff mutts are booming.

People really need to stop believing the superficial, unresearched, unreferenced garbage that they read about dogs - all dogs - in media reports, hear from buffoons like KN and learn on websites geared for low-information readers such as the salt lick for nutbars and mindless haters that operates in Seattle.

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