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« SI article: The Good News out of The Bad Newz Kennel | Main | Merry Christmas from my Gang »

December 23, 2008

Comments

doug

100 Pit Bulls in OK, 187 Pit Bulls in Houston (notice I did not feel the need to put Pit Bulls in quotes - thats how I roll)

This just goes more to my point that the great Pit Bull of your grandfathers generation has been hijacked by the morons of today...

Unfortuantly these two cases are not isolated cases...it goes on time and again across every state, probably more on a smaller scale but I am sure that there are lots of other big operations.

You can keep hiding behind the NO BSL mantra...but until you start acknowledging that you have a lot of scum bags out there who use this powerfull dog for fighting and protection...it will continue to give the pit bull a bad name....it does not matter how much pink or lipstick you throw on the pit bull the image is always going to be of that of the fight to the death we have all seen on video.

And yes it is a great story about Mike Vicks dogs, but that money could have been put to better use than helping 47 dogs.

Instead of spending that money lets say it was a million dollars..how about buying everyone who owns a pit bull in the county where the dogs were held - dog training...along with free spay or neutering if they so choose.

It seems silly to spend that kind of money on dogs when 10's of 1000's are put down every day.

So once again the rich and famous get special treatment. Or in this case the dogs of the rich. Now if this same deal was applied to every pit bull fighting operation I would be okay with it.

Bad Rap....thats a funny name....It seems that the reputation has been earned - that a pit bull has the potential to be a very dangerous dog either by training or if its just a dog with a mean disposition. I guess guns get a bad rap too.....because in the hands of law abiding citizens and police they are a valuable tool but in the hands of criminals they get a BAD RAP...so I guess the reputation of a gun is also earned because you hear of more bad things coming out of a barrel of a gun than you hear good things....but that is just the way our media works....if it bleeds it leads.

Let me know if there are any dog fighting rings which specialize in Golden Retievers? I am curious why is it always the Pit Bulls which are involved in dog fighting....

Brent

Doug,

Maybe you missed it - but the guy in Newkirk has been brought up on animal cruelty charges -- could face up to 350 years in jail. The guys in Texas are up on Felony charges. We HAVE laws to enact on the scumbags -- the problem is that of enforcement.

But making more laws that now cause animal control officers to harrass law-abiding dog owners doesn't really solve the problem does it? That's the whole point isn't it Doug? If you focused all of your resources on scumbags like these guys, THEN you can make progress...

anon

Pi Bulls aren`t INVOLVED in dog fighting.
Humans are INVOLVED in dog fighting.
The dogs are exploited for use in this cruel form of "entertainment"

The same qualities that make them great Law Enforcement Detection dogs,Therapy dogs,high performance athletes in disc,wt pulling,fly ball,agility etc and great family pets are the qualities that attract the dog fighters.

They are easily trained,they crave human attention,they are extremely intelligent and they are eager to please HUMANS.

So QUIT blaming dogs for the blood thirst of humans.
Dog fighters would simply use other Breeds if they couldn`t get Pit Bulls.
It`s all about their psychological problems.
It`s not about what dogs they use.

doug

Guys.....I truly love you guys.....If I ever win the lottery....I promise...I will take you all (twelve+spouces or life partners) on a cruise or a cabin in Canada for those of you who have never seen the ocean or are scared of the water....

We can sit back and crack open some beers and have a great debate....no dogs allowed though.....

You guys are both 100% right....but the fact is humans use pit bulls for bad things.

Anon....I really love you bro....

Your comment "Dog fighters would simply use other Breeds if they couldn`t get Pit Bulls" I dont think it would be the same with other dogs...once you have had the best its kind of hard to watch something which is second or third best...you ever try watch Woman's Professional Basketball, after watching the NBA....its just not the same...

I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas or other just as merry holiday. (and no i have not started to drink early)

anon

[quote] I dont think it would be the same with other dogs..[/quote]

Do you actually believe that dogfighting is about the dogs?
These are sick individuals and they wouldn`t care if it was 2 poodles,2 Retrievers or 2 Collies,2 Rottweilers.
The only difference is I bet they wouldn`t be able to handle those dogs so readily in the Pit.
That`s one of the main reasons they want Pits.
They can handle them without being turned on by the dogs.

I believe it`s Korea where Cockroaches are fought.


Do you think Dog Fighters are going to change their ways if they can`t have Pits?
BYB`s don`t obey laws so Pits will always be available and that`s why the focus has to be on the humans and the penalty for fighting dogs and attending fights has to be severe enough to stop the practice and young people have to be taught to have compassion and empathy so they don`t start down this road.


Selma

Actually, as far as fighting dogs go, there are many other breeds/shapes that are used in these cruel contests.

And yeah, Doug, you'd probably think some of them were 'collies'.

I'm obviously not going to name them, but let's just say that once 'pit bulls' draw too much heat and people twig to what's really going on out there, those cute little pibbles will definitely be the good old days.

I guess child prostitution is the fault of the kids in some peoples' minds - and theft is the fault of the money.

I'm in no mood for Doug's bullshit today, sorry.

Donna

Thanks for posting this Brent. These were such wonderful dogs. I continue to be amazed that, in these saddest of hoarding cases, we can walk right up to the chained pit bulls and the worse we have to worry about is stinky poo smeared on your pants from an overly-enthusiastic hello.

MABBR did beautiful work and they deserve donations for stepping up. You should've seen the sheriffs' mouths hanging open when they realized how many people cared about these seemingly insignificant creatures. They'd been told to put them all to sleep, but they had the balls to say 'Yes' to rescue, and they actually got caught up in the happiness of seeing them leave to new lives. Who would've thought a back-country Oklahoma sheriff would be running to get his camera so he could snap a pic of abused pit bulls loading up on their way to new lives? This is the stuff that makes us believe in Christmas again.

Doug is missing a compassion chip in his DNA. If more people were willing to step outside of their comfort zones to assist beings in distress - animal or otherwise - the world would be a better place in a quick minute.

Here's hoping for more* compassion in 2009. I may even manage to swing a little prayer for Doug after I've had a few drinks in my brain tonite. He may be able to be rehabilitated yet. ;-)

Donna

Selma

Merry Christmas, Donna! We don't always agree but we agree on one thing - people are much better than those who write laws, spread media myths or believe that punitive measures directed at dogs or their owners are the better way seem to believe.

Give those little guys a big hug from Auntie Selma. If our provincial law didn't prohibit the importation of 'pit bulls', I'd be putting in an application for one of your lovely dogs. Whether I'd pass or not would be up to you.

Some day, somehow.

Brent

Thanks Donna. Yes - -this is one of the more sad hoarding cases I've seen. I'm sad for the ones that couldn't be saved - -but man, I'm happy that as many dogs got saved as did.

I truly think minds are starting to change. More and more people are seeing these dogs as what they are -- dogs. For too long, the only time they saw them -- or knew that they saw them -- was after an unfortunate incident on the 10:00 News. It's been a shame that for too long that the ones that simply go for walks, lay on couches, and lick everyone they meet, haven't gotten much air time until recently. Thanks for changing that. Your group has almost single-handedly changed that.

Meanwhile, for everyone else, you may notice a whole bunch of posts gone. Somehow when the conversation diverges into gibberish about fighting cockroaches it seemed more than time to clean up a little -- so those posts, and all comments that referred directly back to those posts, are now gone. Consider it a slightly early Christmas present from me to everyone.

doug

Brent....if we are going to compare BSL to the Holocust....I think we can let in the cockroach stuff as well....

Selma

There's no 'we'. It's Brent's place, he can do as he likes. That's the good thing about having your own blog (hint hint).

Thanks for the present, Brent!

doug

I am sure he can take his bat and ball and go home any time, when ever he strikes out....but that is not how you play the when you were a kid nor now....

The whole point of blogs is to keep it open to everyone's point of view....as long as it is not offesive...

Think of a court case...if the defense introduces some line of questioning, which turns out to favor the prosectution, but was not part of the initial evidence....since the defense brought it up...the prosecuter can follow up...

In this case one of your followers (Anon) suggested that if we take away pit bulls from dog fights they would turn to cockroach fighting, instead....now I never heard of this...so I followed up his/her input on this Blog with some cockroach fighting info....

It seemed like the next logical step...

I think you used the cockroach fighting stuff as an excuse to take down some of my posts because they were so good you could not respond without agreeing with me....

I believe Governments which Michelle talked about in an early post did the same thing....censor censor censor...its too bad that the silent majority does not have a BSL web site...

Brent

Nothing was taken down because you "won" or some ridiculous notion. I took them down because they were way off topic, completely rude, or you had posted nearly the exact same thing in other places.

I think I've been more than open with letting you post your point of view. But my patience is wearing thin with your posting the same things repeatedly on every thread. You've earned a shorter leash...and I'll be giving it to you. If you have new stuff to add, that's on topic, and respectful, you're welcome to post...otherwise, you can save us both some time and not bother.

blafband

great post, i`ll subscribe to your blog! i really like your writing style..

Tom K

I think that if Donna had any real evidence that something was wrong with the dogs she could have shown a photograph or two. I flat refuse to believe that with what must have been a profusion of real evidence that not even one photograph was able to be posted showing anything really wrong. The slideshow shows fat, healthy, clean, happy dogs who are all too willing to be mauled by overly affectionate humans.

Those "starved and abandoned" dogs looked pretty healthy in the pictures and in more than one picture there is fresh fecal matter indicating that the animals must have recently eaten, and their body weight is too good for starved animals. Dogs will claim to have been abandoned for days if you leave them alone for twenty minutes.

Now, I realize that these raids/armed robberies vitally depend on being able to convince a judge of very nearly anything that a veterinarian or a humane society "witness" can pull out of the air, but this takes the prize. I for one don't want any of those yoyos around my pets.

Tom K

Also, it is easy to disprove any claims that the dogs were cared for "on site" and that their well-fed appearance is because of that care. Such caretakers would have removed the broken lumber that was scattered around. That slideshow shows the dogs as they were when Jerry Southern was taking care of them.

This looks to me like the group that attacked Jerry Southern's place lied about what they found and they lied to get a dog killed so that they could say that they had to get a dog killed. In today's political atmosphere it is a lot better to avoid even the appearance of impropriety and someone certainly hasn't managed to do that.

The 90 day sentence says to me that the judge gave in to pressure but that there was no real evidence to convict Southern with. I'm not buying the idea that an Oklahoma judge gave a light sentence out of perversity.

Brent

Tom,

I realize there are animal wefare/rights groups out there that perform raids and violate search and seizure laws. But also realize that there are also some really bad people out there -- and Jerry Lee Southern seems like one of them (unless you are also assuming the judge in Kansas that told him he could never own dogs again in Kansas also did so under false pretenses).

Bad Rap and the other animal welfare people I've mentioned here didn't perform any type of raid. On the tip of a passerby, the local Sheriff's department (you know, real law enforcement types) made the raid, and pressed charges. The department didn't have anywhere near the resources to deal with the dogs and started to work with local groups to figure out what to do with the dogs (and I do believe Southern signed them over to authorities).

One area group was pretty much under the assumption that they were going to have to kill all of the dogs, but after a lot of prodding, the folks at Bad Rap, at MABBR and a few others were allowed to come evaluate the dogs. If I remember right, they were actually cared for on site for a couple of weeks until BR could get there because a big snow/ice storm hit around that time and delayed their getting there.

It is also my understanding that because of these delays many of the dogs in the worst conditions had already been 'euthanized' by the local authorities before they got there.

MABBR had some more graphic pics on their website at the time (I cannot seem to find them on there now). And while I'm sure there are many instances where things are not done on the up and up -- this doesn't appear to be one of those cases -- not in the slightest.

Tom K

Bad Rap chose to make it look like they went into a man's yard and took away happy, healthy animals. They took pains to make a photo-essay of exactly that act. It wasn't my idea.

Tom K

They need ways to stand out from the unethical ones and I think that most of these raids are totally abusive. This is not excused by the existence of evil owners. We're not going to have any good owners left this way.

EmilyS

Tom: for your viewing pleasure (and I'm sure you will enjoy)
http://badrap-blog.blogspot.com/2010/08/oklahoma-style-justice-newkirk-dogs.html

Tom K

After an alleged three weeks of care they still hadn't removed the wooden pallet in the video?

I find it a bit difficult to believe anyone's stories after all of the abusive searches and seizures that I have read about. Thus I pick everyone's stories to pieces. The well has been poisoned and that's why the judge is "notoriously lenient." It's because Oklahoma is keenly aware of past abuses and a lot of law enforcement and judges are sick to death of the antics of fly-by-night humane groups. How is anyone going to go down the same road and do the same things and look different?

Brent

Tom,

Again, I'll point out, it was the county sheriff that press charges, not some animal rights group. And I'm starting to get a little disgusted by your defense of a judge for not being willing to actually sentence really bad people for their actions.

You may want to think back to the timing of this event to think about why Bad Rap chose the pictures they chose to show.

This was in December 2008. Earlier that year, in a high profile case involving a professional football player, a judge ruled that dogs from a dog fighting operation could be evaluated and given the opportunity for rehabilitation vs killed instantly. That same year, more than 100 dogs in Wilkes County, NC were systematically killed (at the applauding of HSUS) because their state law says that all dogs from fight busts MUST be euthanized. That same year, HSUS changed their policy that they would insist all dogs from busts be killed.

So by later in that year, Bad Rap (among others) was showing that these dogs from horrible situations (in fairness, there is no evidence that the Kay County dogs were ever fought, but badly abused -- and were set to be killed before BR entered the picture) could be rehabilitated instead of just killed with no evaluation. So there were a lot of political reasons why showing the dogs to be good with humans and happy made a lot of sense on their part.

Not everyone is an extremist -- in fact most are not. But when you paint everyone else as some type of extreme fanatic it sure makes you seem like one. I get not taking everyone at face value....but there are extremes to that too.

Tom K

Maybe we should hear the judge's side of the story. How did he get to be "notoriously lenient" and in what kind of cases? Did he actually order the return of animals and make it stick when the owner was actually innocent?

The well has been poisoned for the kind of rhetoric and presentation that I saw. No one who depends on arrests and convictions to improve animal care is going to be able to rub me the right way.

It matters very much if someone perceives Bad Rap as a potential extremist group and feels that he has cause. If someone labels me as an animal abuser or extremist because I would put their claims to the test, those are points off my evaluation. That is very nearly an automatic disqualification. People have resorted to this much less than if I challenged an animal rights extremist group. You should have seen it when I challenged the idea that the owner of a dog who died at a ripe old age should die freezing in a small dog run in his back yard, naked.

The "notoriously lenient" thing sticks in my craw and I don't know the circumstances. You have to watch the rhetoric and most of the people who pose as moral authority display their lack of ability by the way that they mistreat people and some of the things that they say. Bad Rap risks the fate of the Edsel because they sound a bit too much like everyone else. What you might call "copying" puts them in the position of looking like a duck and quacking like a duck.

If a judge sees a bunch of people who are extremists and a bunch of people who cannot be distinguished from extremists fighting it out in his courtroom, disrupting his proceedings, and apparently attempting to pervert the course of justice to their own ends and profit, he is naturally going to do something to take away their satisfaction. They got their profit, and not a whole lot of it for that much work. Giving a token sentence and a token payment sends a certain message.

The message is that the animal activist outfit must behave professionally. If they are extremists or HSUS or PETA, there is absolutely no danger that they will do that. But if you have one outfit that is on the right side and it looks and sounds like the wrong side, they're going to get lumped in with the wrong side. Two outfits that are both screaming for the same blood and fighting over the same money and dogs look alike to a sensible person.

It also helps to treat the judge with respect.

MichelleD

Tom - I've ready your posts for awhile and you've gone absolutely bat shit crazy. YOU are now the one being completely dismissed and getting lumped into the wrong side - as you are warning others about. And that is not a sign that you're "winning" the argument. There are lots of legit cases out there of over-zealous animal rights wackos - this isn't one of them. And THAT is why you're hurting your own cause becuase its obvious that you are willing to fight even the good guys just to make your "point". Crying wolf never helped anyone...

Tom K

One of the sad things about it is that it may be true that "this case isn't one of them." Most cases are.

I am indeed willing to fight the "good guys" to make a point. Someone has to. The "good guys" are going to destroy the right of private ownership and almost all of the animals. They constantly destroy a lot of good to get at what little is bad.

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