Breed ID and DNA Tests

The Boston Globe this week had an interesting story about DNA Tests and testing entitled "Mutts Decoded".   There were a lot of interesting things about this article, so you should definitely read it yourself. But here are some of the highlights:

1) One veterinarian who said they've been classifying dogs for 10 years "and when these DNA test results started coming back, I realized I didn't know squat."

2) The results of the DNA tests have come back so surprising that the Massachusettes SPCA is starting to lable all of their dogs as "American Shelter dogs".  "In the end, a dog is a dog."

3) Interestingly, a couple of the shelters that were interviewed noted that many dogs that look like 'pit bulls' they are labeled as such. "Even if a dog winks at you like a pit bull, we have to say it's a pit bull, because someone else might."  This is why the Animal Rescue League errs on the side of caution and labels all look alikes as pit bulls, just so people aren't thrown off by stigmas, laws, insurance policies, etc that might affect the ownership of the dog.

4) It makes you wonder if cities' fascination with 'pit bulls' has led to the large number of them seemingly ending up killed in the shelters -- because they're all getting labeled as pit bulls by the shelters to protect future owners. This certainly is true of breed ID in dog bites too. Seems like most of our 'pit bull' problem would go away if "dogs were dogs" and it included pit bulls.

5) The story talks about one person who had a DNA test on a dog, and it came back as a certified, DNA tested mutt.  This is how Nikko's test came back earlier this year.

6) Their Veterinarian, Dr. Hugh Davis, said "I do a lot of work in Southern Mexico spaying and neutering real mutty dogs. There's a basic dog type that emerges and she looks pretty close to it." According to Dr. Davis, it sounds like there is almost a breed standard for mutts -- and they look an awful lot like pit bulls.  This is another reason why so many different looking dogs get classified as "pit bulls"

I've seen a few of these DNA tests. Here's what I'll say about them. They might be complete bunk. Every "expert" I've ever talked to that has worked with DNA tests and dog breeds has been stunned by the results.  They may be crap.  Or, they may be 100% accurate and be picking up on the hundreds of years of mixing dog breeds that humans have done to get ideal characteristics -- which means that most "purebred" anything are really just perfected mixes over a history of time. Basically what Labradoodles will be like in 150 years.

As we continue to have discussions of Breed ID in the context of "pit bulls", it becomes really interesting. If we truly use the standard that people are innocent until proven guilty (the Consitution should give us this right), cities will at some point have the onus on them to "prove" a dog is a pit bull via something 'more reliable' than sight testing. Which means the city, not owners, will be required to pay the $75-200 per dog for DNA tests. That will be a HUGE taxpayer expense. And then, they'll have to decide how much 'pit bull' is to much. And if they start accepting "any" amount of pit bull is too much, the Lab, Boxer, Bulldog, Ridgeback, Mastiff, etc owners are going to be in for a huge problem.  It will be quite a mess.

I've always said, that even as much time as I spend around 'pit bulls', there are many dogs that I meet that I doubt whether or not it's a pit bull.  But I've never seen a dog that I was afraid of that I had any doubt whether or not I had reason to be afraid of it.   Which is one reason why this whole BSL thing is nonsense in the first place.

For more, read Bad Rap's "Identity Crisis".

And Help Fido has a research project related to this as well. You should give them a hollar if you've had your dog DNA tested...

Comments

[Caveat]

Our law in Ontario, as an example, has nothing to do with the perceived 'breed' of a dog labeled as a generic 'pit bull'.

It's about whether the dog physically looks like one of the 3 named (very different if you know anything about dogs) purebreds.

So, even if a dog is a purebred of a non-named type, he doesn't necessarily skate - if he looks like a 'pit bull' and somebody's on a mission.

Put me down as not having much confidence in these DNA dog tests. I await some verifiable information, not just press releases with lots of disclaimers.

I've said for quite awhile that a lot of 'pit bulls' are nothing more than multigenerational randomly bred dogs who are reverting to the ancestral type - which does, indeed, look a lot like what is labeled as a 'pit bull' in a lot of shelters.

It's all pit bulls**t as far as I'm concerned, but you knew that.

[Adam]

“prove it’s a Pit Bull” Oh... I can’t wait for this to come up. Here in Ohio… we can’t challenge the ‘vicious’ label placed across all Pit Bulls according to the Tellings ruling… But what has never been challenged is, “prove my dog is a Pit Bull.” Lots of liability in calling every dog with short hair and muscles a Pit Bull. I believe I've heard the numbers 9 out of 10 dogs are mis-identified as Pit Bulls... (I'm not positive those numbers are out of the HELP FIDO study or not). I hope Anna will jump in here!

[KC KS Kills Dogs]

It's getting so bad in Kansas City, Kansas that "every dog owner" of a short haired dog is going to have to carry around their copy of their dog's DNA test and have prepaid legal.

I kid you not a citizen named Lori, recently did the law abiding thing went to Animal Control with her dog's paperwork, proof of rabies, proof of s/n (don't get me started that is mandatory too). Animal control refused to issue her a license without seeing her dog first. (I am sure they wanted to see her dog first because the vet paperwork listed the breed as American Bulldog/Boxer mix.)

Lori being the law abiding citizen she is, returned the next day as instructed by AC, with her dog "Roo" in tow and her brother for back up. AC Officer Schwartz proceeded to examine Roo (by the way Roo is deaf and to get his attention the ACO hit the dog). The ACO looked inside the dog's mouth and examined it's coat and declared the dog a "pit bull" based on that.

This is how dog breed ID is determinied by the ACOs in the "dog killing" capital of the USA.

Lori the owner has now been ticketed for possession of a pit bull and will have to go to court to prove otherwise, since her professional, highly educated vet's breed ID is not going to be honored.

More than likely the dogowner in this case is going to have to rely on the DNA test to prove her innocense and be allowed to legally license her dog and keep Roo in the city.

[katie]

DNA tests do not come back as "pit bull" on purebred, papered, responsibly bred APBTs, so they are not helpful in this kind of thing anyway.

[Becky]

In response to all the above. Although I am no scientist, I suspect Brent is correct-- the DNA tests show some history that can go way back, possibly hundreds of years. I know there are human DNA tests that do.

So even tho, as Katie says, they are not helpful for responsibly bred, papered APBT's, I think this is extremely helpful. Even if governments decide the tests are bunk, well.... they ARE, in fact, DNA tests. Cities are already struggling w/ breed ID. What are they going to do, publicly state that they won't accept professional DNA results?? That will only prove they are the idiots we have stated that they are.

WEll, if they try, then all of this (BSL, breed ID, etc) is going to come out far more ridiculous than it already is. What are they going to do -- say, 'well the DNA test shows no APBT, but we will still call it a pit bull'.

btw, in a trial, if the city is proven wrong and the charge is defeated, then the city is responsible for the lab tests.

WE have yet to see all the ramifications, but so far, it sure sounds good for pits to me. WE already know that their DNA, as well as all other dogs' can go way back, genetically. Heck, we'll probably see some Dingos!

[AnnaC]

What HELP FIDO is hoping that our study will show is that, given the questionable reliability and scattered results of something as "scientific" as DNA testing (hello CSI fans!), how can anyone prove a dog is a certain breed or "type" of breed. So it is not so much that we are trying to prove "See...you called this dog a pit bull but it's DNA test says it's a pointer" but rather this: "See...you called this dog a pit bull and would therefore impose a ban on it based on it's supposed breed and not it's behavior. Well it's DNA test says it is a pointer. So back to the drawing board for you. Oh and guess what? Maybe you should just focus on behavior since that is actually something you can measure."
See the difference? I am not (and neither is HELP FIDO) vouching for the validity of the DNA tests out there. I have read their research and it is okay but they sorta quit halfway to the goals once they saw the $$$. However, there are numerous academic institutions who ARE studying the very same DNA testing strategems and so someday that research will be published in peer reviewed journals.

My hope is that the very concept of doing DNA tests and getting mixed, surprising results will show legislators that predicting and legislating behavior based on something as watery as a "breed" is ridiculous!!
PS- Brent - Thanks for the call out to our study and folks please consider participating!!

[MichelleD]

The bigger the pain in the ass BSL is (problems/$$/bad press) the better it is for all breeds (APBT + rotties and the next villified "bad dog de jour").

[MichelleD]

"There's a basic dog type that emerges" -- this is what Caveat has been saying since I've met her! You're so cutting edge! :-)

[Caveat]

I wouldn't mind participating in the study, but I'm in Canada and I'm not sure if they're running the tests from here yet.

Just for a laugh, that is. I doubt they'd get two of my three.

[Becky]

If I ever get my finances together, I plan to get a DNA test for one of my dogs. I would like to get it before a need for it comes up so I can know the results in advance, as I live in a city w/ a ban. I would just like to have it as a precaution for her, as I'm thinking that I will one day in the near future approach a repeal on the ban. I'm thinking of approaching my city for reasons of achieving No Kill status, as they contract w/ a shelter that is working towards this goal. I'm counting on the test coming out whacky, but want to have it first, myself, just in case I'm wrong.