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« When a little bit of information goes wrong | Main | A fatal dog attack, bad reporting, and the media »

December 18, 2008

Comments

anon

Here`s another Paper by he same Author that I came across a while back.
Maybe some haven`t seen it.

[quote]
The pit bull terrier: a dangerous or a defamed breed?
STEPHEN COLLIER
School of Human and Environmental Studies,
University of New England, Armidale, NSW 2351. [/quote]

http://www.dapbt.org/collier.htm

anon

.....or we could just follow Calgary Alberta Canada`s lead(No BSL)and then try and get along with our neighbors instead of squealing on them.

Responsible Pet Ownership ByLaw
http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/cityclerks/23m2006.pdf

Stats
http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_0_104_0_0_35/http%3B/content.calgary.ca/CCA/City+Hall/Business+Units/Animal+and+Bylaw+Services/Animal+Services/Statistics/Animal+Statistics.htm

doug

Let me know if this is too long to post and I will break it up....

This is my version of BSL, which in the end you will find is fair to all dogs.
_________________________________________

The Kansas City Dangerous Owner / Dangerous Dog Law

Dangerous dogs are: Any Dog which is commonly referred to as a Pit Bull, Cane Corso, Doberman, Mastiff, German Shepherd and Rottweiler

1. No one under 25 can own a dangerous dog. ($2,500 fine - $2,000 to the city and $500 to whoever provides the tip)

2. Dangerous dogs can not be kept in a rented apartment. ($2,500 fine - $2,000 to the city and $500 to whoever provides the tip) Both the home owner and the dog owner will be fined.

3. No one convicted of a crime (drugs, violence, robbery etc…) can own a dangerous dog. No one convicted of any of the above crime can own any breed of dog which weighs over 30 pounds. ($2,500 fine - $2,000 to the city and $500 to whoever provides the tip)

4. All dangerous dogs must be spayed or neutered by the time they are 4 months. ($2,500 fine - $2,000 to the city and $500 to whoever provides the tip)

5. The number of dangerous dogs owned can not be more than two per acre of land. ($2,500 fine - $2,000 to the city and $500 to whoever provides the tip)

6. Anyone found owning/or in possession of a dangerous dog while in the process of being arrested or committing a crime will have a mandatory 3 month sentence imposed to be served consecutively to any prison stay (if they are convicted of the original crime) if drugs or illegal weapons are found during the arrest bond will be set at triple the normal rate.

7. Anyone owning a dangerous dog whose dog attacks a person in such a way which is deemed vicious (multiple bites, multiple stitches or death) will have a mandatory 6 month prison sentence to be served immediately; this is in addition to any other sentence which the court system imposes. ($10,000 fine). After the 6 months Bond will be set at 10 times the normal rate. The dog will be euthanized at the owners expense.

8. It will cost an additional $500 to register a dangerous dog. This money will be kept in escrow in an interest bearing account. The $500 plus interest will be returned to the dog owner upon leaving the county or death of the dog as long as no infractions have occurred.

a. Infractions:
i. Tethering
ii. Running Loose
iii. Killing another animal
1. If a dangerous dog is loose and kills another domesticated or farm animal, the dog will be put down and the owner will not be allowed to own any more dogs no matter the size for as long as they live in the county ($10,000 fine and mandatory 3 months in jail).
iv. Biting a person which does not require stitches
b. Any infraction will result in the loss of the $500 + interest and result having to re-register the dog at a cost of $1,000 any re-registering of a dog does not qualify to have money returned.
c. After any infraction the dog will need to go to a city approved training course which will teach behavior and socializing. The dog must be registered in the class and the fee paid before the dog can be released from animal control. If the dog can not pass the class the dog will not be released. The class can be taken 2 times. If after the second time the dog can not pass the class, the dog will not be released and standard pound rules apply.
d. A Third infraction will result in the loss of the dog and the dog owner from owning any dog which weighs over 30 pounds for as long as they live in the city limits. Additionally the dog owner will be treated that any dog they own (no matter the weight) has the potential for a dangerous dog and will be held to the standards set forth in sections 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. The dog owner would then have to Register each dog at a cost of $2,000 per dog this money is not eligible to be returned.
e. A fourth infraction of a dangerous dog will result in the person being banned from owning any dogs in the county no matter the size. A violation of this infraction will be a mandatory 6 months in jail and $20,000 fine.

9. Any dog owner who has 2 infractions for any dogs weighing over 30 pounds will be identified as a Dangerous Owner. And will have to follow all the regulations as if they owned a “dangerous dog”. Dangerous Owners will not have their registration money returned and will start at the $1000 registration fee.
10. Any “non dangerous” dog owner (no matter the size or breed) who has a dog which attacks someone in such a way which is deemed vicious (multiple bites, multiple stitches per bite or death) will be indentified as a Dangerous Owner. This owner will have all dogs removed from their possession no matter the size or breed. They will be unable to own a dog for 2 years and for as long as they live in the country this person will not be able to own any dogs which weigh over 30 pounds and no matter the breed which they own will have to abide by all of the regulations as a dangerous owner. They will also have to pay $2000 to register any future dogs and the dogs will need to pass a training course prior to being released to the owner.

11. Any “non dangerous” dog owner whose dog is loose and kills another domesticated animal or farm animal will be indentified as a Dangerous Owner and any dog which they own no matter the size will fall under all the above guidelines.

12. All Dogs will be kept at animal control until the infraction has been addressed or fine paid. Standard animal control rules apply.

13. Any dangerous dogs violating section 7, 10 or 11 If a dangerous dog is loose and kills another domesticated or farm animal, the dog will be put down and the owner will not be allowed to own any more dogs no matter the size/breed for as long as they live in the county ($10,000 fine and mandatory 3 months in jail). Animal Control will have the dog euthanized and the owners billed for the costs associated.

14. Anyone caught in the presence of a dog fight will be indentified as a dangerous dog owner and will not be allowed to own any dogs for as long as they live in the county. See section “8 e” for fine and jail terms (if caught with dogs in the future). All dogs owned no matter the breed will be euthanized at owners expense.

15. Anyone either raising/training dogs for dog fighting, fighting their dogs for sport/fun/money will not be allowed to own any dogs for as long as they live in the county. See section “8 e” for fine and jail terms. All dogs owned no matter the breed will be euthanized at owners expense.

16. Any one caught with dog fighting supplies/material/videos will not be allowed to own any dogs for as long as they live in the county. See section “8 e” for fine and jail terms. All dogs owned no matter the breed will be euthanized at owners expense.

17. All other rewards for violations for turning in people breaking the law will be at 20% unless otherwise listed.

doug

Ok the Calgary law is not bad....a little a the weak side.....but I guess being Canada what can you expect.....

The Calgary law does not address poor owners enough.....

I think if you merge....some of mine with that which is there....we might have something we can all live with.......just ban all pit bulls.......ok that was a joke...

dissertation writing  help

Blogs are good for every one where we get lots of information for any topics nice job keep it up !!!

PAMM - People Against Mis-Guided Men

Doug, You obviously know nothing about Calgary...one of the lowest bite rates in North America.

Selma

Here are my comments (admittedly, he lost me at the rental thing but I did valiantly forge ahead past the first paragraph for which I must deserve some sort of commendation):

Ho hum.

The End.

PS Calgary's law is completely geared towards dealing with obnoxious and irresponsible owners. Do you read any of this stuff that's posted, Doug? Or do you think your brilliance means you don't have to actually learn anything like all those boring facts and research results and stuff.

Selma

Here are my comments (admittedly, he lost me at the rental thing but I did valiantly forge ahead past the first paragraph for which I must deserve some sort of commendation):

Ho hum.

The End.

PS Calgary's law is completely geared towards dealing with obnoxious and irresponsible owners. Do you read any of this stuff that's posted, Doug? Or do you think your brilliance means you don't have to actually learn anything like all those boring facts and research results and stuff.

MichelleD

Thanks Selma & Pamm.

I did glance up at #16..must have been under a rock and not heard about the Victory Dogs success.

Seriously, when you criticize Calgary you loose all credibility. They have got AC just about perfected. Of course, Bill Bruce's leadership makes it a sucess. If you put a yahoo (like someone that supports BSL in spite of the daming evidence) in charge of enforcing Calgary's, or ANYONE'S laws, failure will be closely looming. Demanding good leadership is just as important as demanding good legislation. Sorry, even more so...something that lacks sorely in you govt.

MichelleD

something that lacks in OUR govt...although I think in Selma's too! ;-)

Signed,
American still confused by the attempted overthrow in Canada.

Which, btw, didn't even make the American MSNews.

Selma

Everything's under control up here again. The fascists are still in charge (phew!). The GG saved the country from the crooks, commies and separatists. The 'coalition' is already in complete tatters. Parliament can be fun!

Sorry for the double post, it took so long I hit refresh expecting to lose my comment - but noooooo.

I'm thanking my lucky stars that people like our scholar above are not actually in charge of writing legislation. He almost makes KN and his ilk, including our own delightful Bryant, look measured and sane.

I mean, what's the point of that rambling bloviation? Pit neighbour against neighbour for money? Or what?

Also, I note that someone is unaware that certain things are already felonies.

Sigh...

Mocha's Momma

So, Doug, are you now banning German Shepherds? Have you ANY idea of who all will go bezerk with a law like this??

You suggest that folks who live in apartments not be permitted to own a 'dangerous' breed, including GS and pits.

I take exception to this. I live in an apartment. I have a 'pit bull type dog'. I won't waste my time telling you about my dog and her behavior, HOWEVER, I WILL maintain that MY dog is more properly cared for and exercised than most who do not live in apartments.

My 'pit bull type' is never left outside in a fenced yard, unattended. My dog is regularly walked on a leash. My dog is regularly taken to an off leash dog park to socialize w/ other dog and humans, run freely off leash under an open sky, thru the woods and into a lake.

There are no children neglec --- scuze me, left unattended around my dog. All child/ old lady/ handicapped/ ignorant jerk meetings w/ my dog are closely supervised.

My dog's life is better than a LOT of dogs who live in houses w/ fenced yards. She is never left in the cold, released, unattended, to the back yard, where she might get stolen, turned loose or come into contact with misbehaving brats.

I am learning to do this and this is all that I ask of you: to THINK things all the way through before you go mouthing off.

Finally, Doug, did you see my comment about my 'pitbull type' dog being attacked at the park by a JRT??

Now THERE is some body language and information that needs studying!

doug

Okay....you cool aid drinkers are missing the total point....there are no dogs banned in my law....there are no dogs automaticlly put down....

Only bad owners are punished....

The end result is there will be more people who get in trouble for their golden retrievers and poodles than other types of dogs even pits and rotts......

The news people will be all over this fact.....and this will prove to everyone in nation that any dog can be bad and bad owners make them worse.....

............okay just so i know this in the future how many of you kool aid drinkers are from canada....just so that I dont make any more canada jokes and put you all in a tizzy.....

The bottom line is be carefull what you wish for....you may not like it when it comes true......

When people say that want pit bull bans what they really are saying they want punk kids, dog fighters and drug dealers not to have these powerfull dogs to be used to protect thier crimes or improve their image...

If you take my proposal and have it apply to all dogs it will never fly.

anon

You must be having a great old time disrupting a serious blog with your nonsense.

You have obviously not bothered to read Calgary`s ByLaw or Posts about it on this blog or elsewhere.

Selma

I'm probably the only Canuck here and trust me, we're kind of a sticks-and-stones country. Grownups, you know? Not overly sensitive about silly remarks.

While it's been interesting to see the machinations of a pristine mind, ie, one that has not allowed itself to be cluttered with facts, data or relevant experiences, I'm afraid your 'explanation' has shown that there is no logic behind most of your thoughts.

Here's what I suggest:

1. Start your own blog - it's free!
2. Post your articles.
3. We'll come over there and waste your bandwidth with nonsensical comments.

Let us know when you're set up and ready to share your insight with the blogosphere.

In the meantime, we're all kind of busy studying, researching, thinking and trying to save people from mindless discrimination, not to mention dogs from completely unjustified, inhumane treatment.

btoellner

Doug, and alas, we have exactly what the problem is with the people who push for BSL-type ordinances.

When you emailed this to me I told you about the scientific health concerns -- particularly in large breed dogs -- and thus the concerns about Mandatory spay/neuter. But you left it in.

I questioned the part about people in apartments owning the dogs - -because you were essentially "solving" for a problem that doesn't exist. But you left it in.

I asked you for justification for the list of breeds included -- you had none and admitted it was arbitrary.

And YET, you are so in love with your own idea that you are promoting it as genious in spite of all the evidence to the contrary and lack of actual data to support it.

And, when quizzed on it, it's easier for you to call people "kool aid drinkers" than to actually provide real support for your idea. Unfortunately there are all too many people out there that fall in love with their idea first, then seek data to support it, vs looking at the data, and determining their position based on it.

anon

Great idea!
Free Blogs
www.google.ca/search?q=Free+Blogs&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Selma

Well, if we can ask questions...and some direct answers will be forthcoming...

What do you mean by 'pit bull' Doug?

What is the thinking behind excluding 30-lb dogs?

Is your idea based on an expectation that banning dogs (restricting is the same, it just takes longer for them to be killed) will eliminate crime?

MichelleD

I promised I wouldn't but...

Have you read your own proposal? "14. All dogs owned no matter the breed will be euthanized at owners expense." Also, you state repeatedly that the dog won't be released until the fee is paid - Do you know what that really means Doug? I honestly don't think you read any of the posts on this blog but just comment.

I'm going to have to agree with Doug on his point of: "When people say that want pit bull bans what they really are saying they want punk kids, dog fighters and drug dealers not to have these powerfull dogs to be used to protect thier crimes or improve their image..."

This isn't a new idea and we've talked about it before...if people were really concerned with public safety the facts are clear that BSL doesn't work - so in theory we shouldn't even be discussing it now.

Selma I think we talked a bit about it when you were at CLC - that BSL is the last frontier that people can exibit their racism thru. There are going to be cities that ARE going to pass BSL like it or not - what kind of BSL can you give them to make them happy and yet not effect responsible owners?

However, the pot shot that we're "drinking the kool aid" is getting old. Opposing a type of law that has been proven ineffective is rational. Must less so than kowtowing to the hysterics that just want a passive aggressive way to punish the lower classes. Putting your focus on the type of dogs instead of addressing the real issue decreases the safety of our community and of our animals - both of which are the REAL issues.

anon

I didn`t know we could ask Doug questions about this.
I`ve gone over it again but he starts with the premise that certain Breeds/types are inherently dangerous so there`s just no point going beyond that.
I`d like to see his evidence to support that premise up front.
Other than that here are a few questions..

What`s this magic age of 25?
24 you`re irresponsible,26 you`re responsible?
People vote,fight for their Country,get elected to Gov`t and procreate prior to age 25 but they can`t own one of Doug`s dangerous dogs?

2 dangerous dogs per/acre of land?
So if I own 100 acres,according to Doug I can own 200 dangerous dogs if I`m over 25.
My neighbors will love that one.

#16
[quote]All dogs owned no matter the breed will be euthanized at owners expense.[/quote]

Why would dogs exploited by humans be euthanized if they are sound dogs?

There`s just too much craziness in his blurb to go on.

On your own blog Doug,pick all your "dangerous" breeds and support that belief/opinion with hard FACTS.
Then carry on with your Dangerous Dog Legislation from there.

The only intelligent think he said was..

[quote]When people say that want pit bull bans what they really are saying they want punk kids, dog fighters and drug dealers not to have these powerfull dogs to be used to protect thier crimes or improve their image...[/quote]

Many are saying that, but many have another agenda.

And Doug if these punk kids,dog fighters and drug dealers can`t get certain dogs do you really think they`re just going to morph into fine upstanding citizens?

doug

Listen cool aide drinkers......my whole point is, if a city is going to alreayd inact a BSL law....then at least put something in it which will effect all dogs with bad owners....

If you want....take out the spade neuter in mine along with the apartment section....

My law is going to be way more pit bull friendly than any current BSL.

Plus it is really going to kick owners in the ass who rasied there dogs to be mean.

How many times have we seen the story, cops shoot pit bulls on drug raid....Brent just posted a story the other day....

Think back when you were 18....we were all idiots...same goes for 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24....at 25 we all losing some of the idiot in us.....

Everyone on this post has said they they socialize their pit bull or that they got some certificate for being good...you think the majority of people under 25 are going to do this? I dont think so....

The whole point in this law is to bring up the level of compentence of the current Pit Bull owners to give the rest of you a better name.

doug

I worked all day today....so i just had time to read some of your posts....christ....you people are funny....almost like a dog with a bone....

Brent. I left that in for others to see so that they could get rid of it...and feel like they did something...

Anon/Michelle...what agenda?? 40 Years ago, no one heard anything bad about pit bulls. They were america's dog....well for the last 30 the lowest part of america's society has taken over ownership of your dogs. So you need to weed them out if you want to regain your image. Owning a dog is not a right its a privilage....And having a Felony on your record and not being able to own or be in a possesion of a dog over 30 pounds is a good idea.

You get a Drivers license at 16, able to enter the military at 18 and able to drink beer at 21 why not owning a dangerous dog at 25.

And I have said this before....lets use society to determine what a dangerous dog is....Lets use how many times cops shoot at a specific breed of dog to determine which breed is the most dangerous.

Selma, please....put down the dam cool aid....I am tired of the word pit bull in quotes.....that just goes with the rest of the talking points of the pro pit bull propagand machine. I get it....there is "no" "such" "thing" "as" "a" "Pit Bull".
But what if we applied that to everything....there is no such thing as "white people"....white people are now going to be called....Anglo saxon canadians, anglo saxon irish men, ango saxon italians, anglo saxon french and so on and so on....

Brent....if there is a way that you can ban an IP address....by all means.....add me to the list....otherwise just think of me as 1 tenth of your blog population....and then kiss my ass thanking me that I am wasting my time responding.

Again....since no one seemed to have any issues with me stating that, my idea for BSL is better than any of the BSL's currently in place....I will take that as a silent victory....since I think if you were to put my form of BSL in place in Denver or the UK...or mabye even Kansas City....I would be voted mayor by the pit bull crowd....oops...."pit bull" crowd....

btoellner

Be sure to not rule out the possibility that people are just ignoring you.

And congrats, of all of the really shitty ordinances out there yours is less shitty. CONGRATS on that.

You've still provide no rationale or logic for 95% of it...and zero evidence or even logic that it would actually work.

Your biggest selling point is that it sucks less than the other completely ineffective ordinances like in Denver and UK....and your defense of the age 25 for ownership is "why not?"

Some of us are trying to help solve the problem. It seems ridiculous when there are multiple case studies of cities that ARE improving public safety to just ignore successful ordinances, science and logic to come up with a "less crappy" ordinance.

As for the 1/10 of my blog reading population -- you found me, right? Which means that most people who have done searches on this subject probably have too -- and a good many have stuck around.

Again Doug -- I don't ban people....I actually want civil debate on the subject. And I will note -- this comment crossed the line on the "civil" front...but when the next one that looks similar to this one -- with the irrational name calling -- don't be surprised when it's gone.

Tamara Follett

My name is Tamara Follett, and I am an internationally-recognized thought leader and Subject Matter Expert in Mitigating the Risks of Dangerous Dogs. 

The Problem: 

In the 135,000 years since the first hominid reached out to touch the shaggy head of a wild canid, mankind has continued to wrestle with the problem of dog-human attacks. And we haven't made significant progress in all that time -- the incidence of dog-human attacks and dog bite-related fatalities continues to escalate across North America. 

The Solution: 

In 2004, I led an investigation tasked with finding a solution to the problem of dog-human attacks. Three years later we surfaced with a research-based, expert-reviewed, comprehensive, multi-prong solution entitled the 7-Step Dangerous Dog Risk Mitigation Protocol --and it was accompanied by a website unlike any other in the world, containing tools, guides and methodologies destined to transform the landscape of aggressive dog ownership:

From a Dangerous Dog Tracking database that conducts trending anaylses to identify "high-risk" dogs BEFORE they bite, to a Neighborhood Dangerous Dog Risk Assessment Worksheet, to the internet version of a Crime-Stoppers Tip Line for reporting problem dogs, this website has been internationally recognized as a resource by peer and expert alike -- but no one really knows about it yet.

Check it out -- We believe it provides a feasible solution to stop irresponsible owners and breeders of ANY breed. We welcome constructive comments and questions, but we simply do not respond to rudeness -- we are researchers as well as dog owners, and prefer to keep things impersonal.

Have a Happy and Safe Holiday!

Kind Regards,

~~Tamara.
www.PreventDogBites.com
www.PreventDogBites.ca

anon

[quote] the incidence of dog-human attacks and dog bite-related fatalities continues to escalate across North America. [/quote]

Not according to Karen Delise,recognized Expert in Canine Fatalities

http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/historicCases.asp

[quote]The truth is - the incidence and frequency of dog attacks has remained relatively consistent over the last century, regardless of the popularity or involvement of certain breeds of dogs.[/quote]

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